My soul clings to you,Your right hand upholds me.
I kept this short, but I think it will help give you a basic idea of the Trinity (I sent you before some resources as well that explain the Trinity. If you need them again I can resend them). I think this will help, since your responses often don’t actually address the Trinity, but instead builds a straw man and knocks it down. I don’t say that as a criticism, but as an honest realization that I do that as well. We all do that, which is why I am trying to be very careful to understand what you believe. And it is why I keep pushing you with hard questions. I want to know what you actually believe, not something I think you believe. So, it doesn’t upset me if you do it as long as you are patient to hear what I believe and also patient with me when I do the same 😊. It doesn’t help if we are only knocking down imaginary ideas, which means we have to do a lot of listening. My hope is that as I present what the Trinity is, that instead of attacking a straw man, things that are not the about the Trinity, you will be able to attack the actual premises and beliefs of the Trinity in a more thorough and honest manner. I have questions, yes, but the purpose of those questions to help you to describe what you believe more clearly and comprehensibly. Show me how what you believe develops in the scripture. Show me God’s story. Go deeper into the scripture with your answers. Show me how the scriptures flow and interact with each other. Anyways I hope what I write and share with you helps you better explain what you believe and your faith.
Ed, I know I can argue the Trinity and other Christian beliefs well. But I am not doing this out of stubbornness, I am trying to help you and give you the opportunity to explain your beliefs better than me. If you can answer these questions, you will be able to convince not only me, but countless others of your faith. And we ought not be intimidated or have fear or be troubled, by those who asks us to give an account for our hope. For the scripture says,
AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence (1 Peter 3:14b-15)
For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ (2 Corinthians 10:4.5)
Do not fear. Have faith in the scripture. Have faith in Jehovah. And this confidence I expect to see in you as you answer my questions and present your faith.
The Trinity
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” (Deuteronomy 6:4)
This verse is in contention between Unitarians and Trinitarians, for this verse is central to both of their beliefs. And this contention is focused on the word “one”. For Unitarians this word is restricted to a number. Trinitarians agree that the word “one” has a numeric function (Is 45:21-22, 44:6-8, Ex 15:11, Deut 4:35, 6:4-5, 32:39), but also understand that this word is used elsewhere to describe unity between members (Genesis 2:24, Genesis 11:6, John 17) and therefore feel it is fitting to take in the full meaning of this term in describing who God is. They also point out that in this verse God is referred to three times, possibly emphasizing this three-person unity. So, saying God is one for the Trinitarian, is both numeric and relational. Deuteronomy 6:4 according to the Trinitarian is describing one God who has eternally been in relational unity. Deuteronomy 6:4 is the foundational verse for the Trinity.
The Trinity has an emphasis of a God who has eternally loved. When John says, “God is love”, the term for “love” is an outward selfless love. For God to be love eternally there must be an outward selfless directed love. Note this kind of love does not exist in the imagination, or a future creation, but must be expressed currently and eternally toward an object to be true. An Unitarian God did not have this love for an eternity past, because there was no outward actualized current object to love till one was created. The only eternal love a Unitarian God can have eternally is an imaginary love and a self-love. Therefore, a Unitarian God cannot be said to have had an active, current actualized eternal outward directed love. However, this is not true of a Trinitarian God, a God who does not change, but from eternity past has had a current actualized eternal outward directed love. Because the Trinity consists of three persons who are in unity as one God, these three persons outwardly love one another for eternity. Thus, John can say, “God is love”, because love is central to who God is. It is also why love is called to after the statement “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” This is why loving God is the first and greatest command, the second to love others (Matt 22:37-39). “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love” (1 Corinthians 13:13). And did not Paul pray that we would know this love that surpasses imagination,
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen” (Ephesians 3:14-21)
The love of Christ fills us with the fullness of God. (Note that it is the love of Christ, that fills us with the fullness of God, something only the love of God can do) This love is intimate. “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (John 17:3). The word “know” is used in the Bible for the most intimate of relationships of a man and wife. God calls his people his bride and himself our husband. This is the intimate love God has for His people. This intimate, close, passionate, fully giving of oneself, extravagant love is the theme of the Bible. And it is the theme of the Bible because it is who God is in the Trinity. God’s love and intimacy with us is an outflow of who He is. Jesus delighted to have the children come into his presence, not hindering them, and also pursued the prostitute, tax collector, demon possessed, sick, and sinners, and cried out “come all who are weary and heavy laden”. We are his sheep, and He knows us by name. A shepherd has an intimate relationship with all his sheep. This kind of love is not the heart of a created being, this is the heart of God, who desires intimate, close relationship with us. An intimate relationship that is beyond anything we could ask or think. It is God’s pursuit of an intimate relationship with all His people that is the story of scripture. Therefore the love of the Trinity is foundational to the faith of a Christian and what we believe about the Gospel and salvation.
Trinitarians believe there are three persons, each fully God, in one essence, nature, or being, having the fullness of being one, both in the numeric sense and in unity of love as described when the scripture states, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” (Deuteronomy 6:4). Being three persons, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, nor the Son, the Father or Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit the Son or Father. So, for example, when the Father sends the Son, He is not sending Himself. No, this is real and heart felt, just as any earthly father would send their own son, so God the Father sends his Son into the world, and yet it is even deeper than the earthly example or if Jesus were created, for the love that the Father has for the Son and the love that the Son has or the Father is an eternal love, something no earthly or created relationship can experience. The relationships that the three persons of the Trinity have are real, eternal, and deeper than any love we can imagine. So, John can truly write, “God is love”. Since they are three persons, we see real and active interactions between the three persons of the Trinity. Since each is fully God they interact with each other as God. Jesus prays to the Father, the Father glorifies the Son, Jesus sends the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit intercedes to God for the saints.
The scripture refers to each of the three persons of the Trinity as God and Yahweh (Ex 3:14-15; Deut 32:39, Zech 12:8-10, 14:1-5, Is 40:3, John 1:23, Matt 3:1-3, Luke 3:3-5, Heb 1:10-12, Ps 102:25-27; Jer 23:5-6; John 12:26-43; Is 6, John 8:24; John 19; Is 43; Rev 1:8, Rom 10, John 1:1,14,18, Titus 2:14, Matt 1:23, Acts 20:28, Rom 9:5, 2 Pet 1:1, John 20:28). Each person of the Trinity are fully God. Each of the three persons of the Trinity have qualities that can only be attributed to God: aseity, eternal (Micah 5:2, Hebrews 7:3), all-knowing (Mark 2:8, Luke 6:8, 11:17, John 2:24,25, omnipresent (Matt 18:20, John 14:20-23, Eph 1:23, 4:20), omnipotent, immutable (Hebrews 13:8, Matt 24:35), creator (Is 44:24, Job 9:8-9, Is 45:18), having all authority (Judges 8:23, 1 Sam 8:7, 1 Sam 10:19, Jer 23:5,6, Eph 1:21-23), the Name (Is 52:6, Ps 83:18, Malachi 1:11, Matt 28:19, Joel 2:32, Romans 10:5-13, Acts 2:21,39, Acts10:43, Acts 22:16, 1 Cor 6:11, Is 43:11, Phil 2:9-11), Savior (Hosea 13:4, Is 43:11, Titus 1:3-4, 2:10, 3:4-6), on clouds of heaven (Deut 33:26, Ps 104:1-3, Is 19, Dan 7:9-13, Matt 26: 63-66), Worshiped (Is 2:11, Rev 5:8), Delivered from Egypt (Jude 4, Cor 10:4) etc.
We both believe Jesus is God. But the scripture goes further and says that he is Jehovah. Here is a sampling of verses that demonstrate Jesus is Jehovah: John 8:24; Zech 12:8-10; Zech 14:1-5; Is 40:3; John 1:23; Jer 23:5-6; John 12:27-43; Is 53; Is 6; Matt 3:1-3; Luke 3:3-5; Heb 1:10-12; Ps 102:25-27; Is 40:3; John 19:4-6; Is 43; 1 Cor 1:30-31; Jer 9:24; Zech 11:13; John 1:14; Col 2:9; Heb 1:1-3; Phil 2:6; Phil 2:10; Rom 14:11; Is 45:23; John 1:18; Gen 48:14-16, Judges 13; Matt 1:22-23; John 1:1; Deut 8:3; 1 Sam 3; Gen 15; Deut 5; Jer 1; Is 44:6; Matt 28:19; Is 52:6; Is 26:7-9; Is 12:4; Ps 83:18; Ex 34; Is 7:14; Acts 1:8; Joel 2:32; Romans 10:13; Acts 2:21,39; Ps 91:14; Acts 3:12-16; Acts 8:12; Acts 10:43; Acts 22:16; Acts 22:16; 1 John 5:13; John 3:18; 1 Cor 6:11; Is 43:5-13; Is 52:6; Luke 10:17; Acts 4:30; Acts 4:10-12; Phil 2:9-11; Eph 1:21-23; Jer 23:5,6; Is 2:11, John 9:38; Heb 1:6; Rev 5:8; Is 42:8; Matt 18:20, 28:20; Heb 7:3; Jude 5; Ps 68:19, Eph 4:7-10; Deut 33:26; Psalm 104:1-3; Is 19:1; Dan 7:9-13; Matt 26:63-66; Is 44:24; Job 9:8,9; Heb 1:10-12, Psalm 102; John 1:3; Col 1:16; 1 Cor 8:6
For the Spirit of Jehovah, obviously in his name, he is Jehovah, he is God, what we have to ascertain is if the Holy Spirit is a person or a force. Here are some verses that show that the Holy Spirit is a person: Matt 28:19; 1 Cor 13:14; Eph 4:4-6; 2 Cor 3:16-18; John 14:17; Acts 8:39; Rom 8:11; John 6:63; 1 John 5:6; John 14:26; Rom 8:16; Rom 8:26; Is 63:10; Rom 8:27; 2 Sam 23:2; Acts 8:29; Acts 10:19; Acts 11:12; Acts 13:2; Acts 21:11; Acts 28; 25-26; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7-8; Rev 2:7,11,17,29; Rev 3:6,13,22; Rev 14:13; Rev 22:17; 1 Cor 2:11; Acts 15:28; Acts 5:3; Acts 5:9; Acts 20:28; Acts 5:32: Acts 7:51; John 14:26; Luke 12:12; Matt 4:1; John 6:63; Acts 2:4; Matt 3:16; Matt 12:32; Mark 1:8; John 3:34; John 20:22; Acts 16:6; 1 Cor 2:10; 1 John 5:6
We also believe that Jesus became fully man in every way, emptying himself, taking on every aspect of what that means to be human, including obeying, serving, worshiping, and being devoted to the one and only true God. I explained this more thoroughly previously in a letter I sent and won’t repeat it all here. But to summarize, the messiah had to fully complete everything man was supposed to do, otherwise no one could be saved. One of those aspects is in his humanity, Jesus, as we are called to do, served the only true and living God in every way we are to. I would reread what I wrote earlier on this subject. But this is fundamental to Trinitarian teaching. I know this makes John 17:3 a harder argument for you, I am not trying to make it harder, I am just trying to share with you honestly what Trinitarians believe. And this is the story of the Trinity and their determination to save mankind. But this is where you have to work to show how what you believe shows the story of God’s love and how it is supported by scripture more. It forces you to go deeper into what your faith is, which is in the end is always a good thing. So, it should make you rejoice that you get to explore the wonders and beauty of Jehovah at a deeper level. And I look forward to seeing that.
So, for the Christian, there is one God, not three separate gods or three separate modes of God. They are three persons in one essence, nature or being. God is both “one” in unity and “one” in the numeric sense. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are truly one God. Just as “love” is prominent in the Bible, the scripture is filled with the theme of “oneness”. The power of God is found in this idea of “one”, a power that can only be found in a Trinitarian God. A Unitarian God, it is just a number, and shows that he is above all else. For a Trinitarian God, yes, He is one God above all else, but he is also more. He is unlike anything we know, He is Holy, Holy, Holy. He is a God bigger than we can comprehend. There is none that is even remotely like Him. So yes, for us there is one God. And we are baptized under one name (Jehovah), the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). There is only one name (Jehovah), because there is only one God.
We also believe there is no other god (Is 43:10, Deut 4:35, Is 41:4, Is 44:6, Psalm 86:10) or savior (Hosea 13:4, Is 43:11) besides God. “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.” (Is 44:6) We take very seriously the first commandment.
You shall have no other gods before me. (Ex 20:3)
This is more than just saying we will not have another god equal to God, this is saying we will not have another god period, at all, whether equal or lesser to God. Jesus is clearly called God in the scripture. The question is – does the scripture say Jesus is a god besides Jehovah or is he God Jehovah, himself. Trinitarians believe there are no gods beside Jehovah. There may be so called gods, such as Satan who is called the god of this world, but for us there is only one God. Satan is not our god. There is not in any way “a god”, regardless of its standing, for the Christian. Nor is there anywhere in the scripture where “a god” is given any status next to or in the presence of Jehovah. Because we take the first commandment seriously, the Christian does not recognize any god or “a god” except for Jehovah. It is this passion for Jehovah as our only true God with no gods besides him that drive us to reject the idea that Jesus is “a god” who is besides or in the presence Jehovah, even as a lesser god, who is revered less. In Revelation, both Jesus and the Father sit on the one throne of God, because they are Jehovah God. As Christians we are baptized into one name (Jehovah), and only one name (Jehovah) – The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19). We are saved by calling on the Name (Jehovah) and only one name (Is 52:6, Ps 83:18, Malachi 1:11, Matt 28:19, Joel 2:32, Romans 10:5-13, Acts 2:21,39, Acts10:43, Acts 22:16, 1 Cor 6:11, Is 43:11, Phil 2:9-11). For us there is also one God of heaven and earth (Deut 4:39).
We come to this understanding because of what the scripture teaches. The Bible teaches that there is one God, and yet it refers to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as God and Jehovah. It is from this that the concept of the Trinity was formed.
So, I hope this helps you understand the Trinity more. If you have any other questions let me know. So now on your part having shared what I have shared, help me to know how the scripture discounts the Trinity. Ed, I really need your help with this. If you believe Jesus is “a god”, how is this not breaking the first commandment, “You shall have no other gods before Me.”? How do you explain this? This is something hard for a Trinitarian to understand, since we believe in only one God, nor are we allowed to have “a god” even below Jehovah. Again, this is not an attack, I am being honest where I struggle with your concept of Jesus being “a god” separate from Jehovah. I think explaining this and showing me the scriptures that support there being “a god”, without violating the first commandment, would go a long way to helping me to understand how you support your beliefs from the scripture. I look forward to your response on this and the other questions.
